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May 2, 2011 at 9:11 am #31151

Dog_paddle

Hello,
My name is Dog_paddle. I am an outdoors enthusiast from Montana. I enjoy expedition canoeing, whitewater kayaking, hiking, wildlife watching and am really into primitive skillls and bushcraft. I try to harvest all the meat (Elk & Deer) that my family eats.

About me, I am an outfitter and guide for various wilderness adventures in the Yellowstone Park region. I have been a professional guide for 17 years- guiding big game hunting, dog-sledding, rafting, canoeing and horse packing adventures throughout the Northern Rockies. I live a remote lifestyle in the mountains with my wife and young son. We have 48 dogs (Alaskan Huskies and Karelian Bear Dogs) and love to be outside with them.

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My Blog: The Wild Life: Wilderness Adventure & Lifestyle http://yellowstonedogsledding.blogspot.com

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May 2, 2011 at 11:29 am #31152

paddleplacid

Nice life you live! 

In your website’s advice on bears you leave out airhorns which have proven to be far more effective than pepper spray.  Palm-sized but powerful airhorns are available at marinas, and they’re great for signalling on the water as well.  Mine dangles from my lifejacket.  Personally, when ashore I make sure my homemade spear is closeby, and I use it as a walking staff when hiking.  Bears are bullies, and like all bullies they almost never do well in a conflict where the defender is properly prepared .. just being prepared with a good weapon can show a bear that you mean business and that the bear is at serious risk.  Animals don’t like being injured, which is why a determined small animal can defend itself succesfully against a large aggressor.  My spear is a piece of hardwood dowling with an evestrough spike protruding six inches from the end, with the end of the shaft carved to follow the spike in penetration.  My spear pulls apart into two lengths, with each length carrying a spike.  Also .. it’s a small point, but Black Bears are white on rare occasions.  A great book on bear defence is Stephen Herrero’s Bear Attacks.

May 2, 2011 at 9:49 pm #31153

Dog_paddle

 I would like to see your current study/research that proves airhorns to be more effective than Bear Spray- specifically at stopping a charging Grizzly.  Horns work great at scaring bears off (we use them with our Karelain Bear dogs when hazing bears) but really airhorns and bear spray have differnt functions.  Bear spray is used only when being charged and at extremly close range. Plus- Bear Spray teaches a bear a lesson- horns don’t. If you spray a bear with pepper spray it learns to associate humans with physical pain.  Lastly, think about this- what if the horn doesnt deter the bear? what happens then?  Being caught between a Grizzly and her cubs is not a great time to test theories.

The info on my blog is aimed towards the Yellowstone region.  I have taken several different seminars on Bear safety and management, work hazing habituated Bears with Karelian Bear Dogs, and regularly lead Bear Awareness education classes in the Yellowstone region.  Also, in the Yellowstone region white, black bears are incredibly rare- however, very light fazed blonde Grizzlies are not- so, its best to not further confuse the color variables- we try to stess don’t identify a bear by color- look at all the other characterisitcs

 I have been charged several times, live in an area thick with Grizzlies and keep several tons of dog food and frozen meat on my property (bear attractant basically)- I live with Grizzlies everyday- I see them on my property and regularly on my travels just getting in and out of my house.  Personally, I think your spear is naieve, and a little reckless to recommend when dealing with Grizzly bears. Have you read the Journals of Lewis and Clark?  They talk at great length about their dealings with Grizzlies and on several occassions had to shoot Grizzlies 7 or 8 times to get them to stop charging.

May 3, 2011 at 1:55 pm #31154

paddleplacid

Dog_paddle – 15 hours ago  »   I would like to see your current study/research that proves airhorns to be more effective than Bear Spray- specifically at stopping a charging Grizzly.  Horns work great at scaring bears off (we use them with our Karelain Bear dogs when hazing bears) but really airhorns and bear spray have differnt functions.  Bear spray is used only when being charged and at extremly close range. Plus- Bear Spray teaches a bear a lesson- horns don’t. If you spray a bear with pepper spray it learns to associate humans with physical pain.  Lastly, think about this- what if the horn doesnt deter the bear? what happens then?  Being caught between a Grizzly and her cubs is not a great time to test theories. The info on my blog is aimed towards the Yellowstone region.  I have taken several different seminars on Bear safety and management, work hazing habituated Bears with Karelian Bear Dogs, and regularly lead Bear Awareness education classes in the Yellowstone region.  Also, in the Yellowstone region white, black bears are incredibly rare- however, very light fazed blonde Grizzlies are not- so, its best to not further confuse the color variables- we try to stess don’t identify a bear by color- look at all the other characterisitcs  I have been charged several times, live in an area thick with Grizzlies and keep several tons of dog food and frozen meat on my property (bear attractant basically)- I live with Grizzlies everyday- I see them on my property and regularly on my travels just getting in and out of my house.  Personally, I think your spear is naieve, and a little reckless to recommend when dealing with Grizzly bears. Have you read the Journals of Lewis and Clark?  They talk at great length about their dealings with Grizzlies and on several occassions had to shoot Grizzlies 7 or 8 times to get them to stop charging.

A good education is ‘Bear Attacks’ by Stephen Herrero .. if you’r experienced enough you’ll have heard of him.  Bears can actually be attracted to the taste of bear sprays.  Like I said in my other responses to you, Dog Paddle, I never said sprays are totally ineffective.  You may think my spear is naive, others think it’s an excellent idea.  I live in Canada where we have lots of bears.  If I lived in your Grizzly area I’d carry a gun (which is also no guarantee) but I live in Black Bear country, which is dangerous enough.  We are always learning, Dog Paddle, I just learned that most Black Bears hunt during the day, whereas Grizzlies hunt at night, so on my trips I can sleep easier, but I know we have to use all our knowledge and skills all of the time to elevate our safety. 

May 3, 2011 at 4:05 pm #31155

Bryan Hansel

Actually, placid, the only place that Herrero writes about bears being attracted to spray is on page 128 of Bear Attacks. He writes about an incident where bush pilots used sprays incorrectly as a repellent, like bug spray, instead of a deterrent. When used incorrectly, it doesn’t work. In 94% of black bear incidents that Herrero studied it worked well as a deterrent — the bear ran. In 100% of grizzly incidents it worked well.

May 4, 2011 at 6:39 am #31156

rich5665

Although I’m sure both methods are effective, I prefer to not have to test either method. As an Assistant Scout Master we instruct our boys to do everything possible to make our camp sites less attractive to bears. Nothing is 100% and as I’ve said before in my intro thread, the most intellegent person is not always the smartest. I’m by no means an expert when it comes to camping, hiking or paddling, but if pepper spray and airhorns work as a deterent than I say carry both. In the end education and common sense are your best tools.

I have found some information regarding both methods.

Bear Pepper Spary: http://www.bearicuda.com/bear-safety/bear_repellent_mace.php

Air horns: http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2009/03/do-air-horns-make-for-good-bear.html

May 4, 2011 at 8:45 am #31157

Dog_paddle

“In the end education and common sense are your best tools.”  I agree Rich- great advice.  Also, I agree, if your in an area that you can- then carry both.  I am not against airhorns, or saying they are not effective.  All, I have been trying to say is that there are no scientific studies- that support Paddleplacids statement….and then pass along real information for people traveling in bear country….

May 4, 2011 at 9:33 am #31158

paddleplacid

Dog_paddle – 31 minutes ago  »  “In the end education and common sense are your best tools.”  I agree Rich- great advice.  Also, I agree, if your in an area that you can- then carry both.  I am not against airhorns, or saying they are not effective.  All, I have been trying to say is that there are no scientific studies- that support Paddleplacids statement….and then pass along real information for people traveling in bear country….

I mentioned the Ketnai Park (Aaska) study from Herrereo’s book, Dog Paddle, although perhaps not in this particular thread, but in response to you in another thread on this topic. Your insinuation that I am using information that is “not real’ is not accurate nor gentlemanly.  I will be surprised if scientific studies have not been conducted proving effectiveness of air horns, but also believe most scientific studies are undertaken as the result of real world experience either suggesting or proving that something is a fact.  For instance, my brother works at a marina in British Columbia, Canada, and he sells a lot of air horns to prospectors and similar people who swear they are better than bear spray.  Such examples will prompt scientific studies if they haven’t already been done. My brother sent me a horn as a gift.  I’ve now read Rich 5665′s references, and it seems there have been scientific studies on the effectiveness of air horns.

Rich 5665 you made an excellent contribution.  You temperate spirit and references are applauded.  Thanks.  I’ve read your url, and was reminded that conditions for pepper sprays, including winds, have to be just right for their effectiveness, whereas air horns are effective at all times.  Now, I’m not saying an air horn is guaranteed to stop a charging bear, but neither is a gun, and I believe it was Herrero’s book which explains how it generally takes a real firearms expert to use a gun of any kind effectively against a charging bear.

Yes Bryan, the aircraft pilot example is a good one, and proof that pepper sprays can actually attract bears because they enjoy the taste.  I’m glad you refer to Herrero’s book because it is such a valuable resource.  I repeat that I never suggested bear sprays are totally ineffective .. but they do at times fail to stop charging bears, and in those cases I want to be as well armed as possible, and like Rich 5665 says, use of all available equipment is commendable.

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